How much "live" are Rammstein`s live albums?

[The Rose]

Schneider in an interview for Reise Reise, says he prefers Till's voice on that album, as it has more tonality. I think I agree, it could be quite monotonous if he kept "pushing" the words out. I like some variety. I think he changed with an increased confidentiality in his vocal abilities.

[EmeraldRose]

I prefer the growly, deep Till to the whispery, tiptoe Till. But that's just my personal preference to male singers in general. I very much like watching the LaB concert footage, because they were so deeply into the music (or so it seemed anyway). But I look at it as having been nearly 20 years ago and know that they just can't do that sort of thing anymore.

I can't do the sort of things I used to do 20 years ago, just physically and mentally can't, so why would I expect the band to still be able to jump around and headbang? They're older than I am...If they could still do that stuff, I'd be seriously worried that one of them would get injured. I much prefer them taking it easy, focusing more on the music and still being around 20 years from now making amazing music.

Back to Till's voice. I really hope Lindemann showcases his superdeep growly voice. Really really really...

[Waidmann]

I'm sure the grunting-whispery voice on Völkerball was intentional, it was the "paradigm" of his singing in that moment. It does sound like his out of breath than, but during songs like Stripped you can hear it's not. It's actually a very difficult, tiring (and unhealthy) way of singing. I think he struggled with that during the Lifad period (+ he might've been out of shape from the long hiatus + he was sick a few times), so for the MIG tour he often returned to his former strong "teutonic" voice. And for me, during songs like Mein Herz Brennt and Mutter he proved he still easily can pull that off.
I think if he keeps his voice in shape, he could still do stuff like Klavier and Morgenstern. Some very good performance of Ohne Dich show me that.

I think some songs are actually too hard for him to do live. Klavier was good in 1998, but not spot on, I think he gave it his very best. Just like Frühling in Paris and Stein Um Stein, where the voice changes are very big.

[Chrisss Nofff]

^I disagree about Till's. Even though he does have a pretty nice performance in songs like Mutter, I really miss his deep voice from herzeleid/sehnsucht.

Technically his voice is deeper now than before. It's natural that your voice gets gradually deeper, even as an adult. Then again, his voice did have some sort of strengh back than, which I have missed in the last couple of years. Like I said before, I felt that his voice was not quite on spot during the entire LIFAD tour. Oddly enough, he does seems to have gotten better during the last couple of years.

However, I guess that is maybe a reason why the band is not so excited about playing Herzeleid and Sehnsucht material anymore. Although Till has always been a quite musculare and tall man, it was suprising for audiences back then to hear his very deep bass-voice. In addition you could really see him concentrating to get those deep notes and growles right. Look at the 1996 Berlin performance of Herzeleid for instance. Nowadays he pretty much just talks during these songs. You can see in recent "Wollt ihr das Bett in Flammen sehen" performances, that it's not challenging for him at all. What I do wonder a lot about, is if he can still sing songs with very high pitch notes througout. Like "Klavier" for instance, or the chorus of "Morgenstern".

I think it is obvious that all of our favorite 90s metal and rock bands have members which have aged a lot. Rammstein however has several advantages:

1- Rarely do Rammstein songs have much high pitch singing. Like I said earlier, that is good news for Till.
2-Although we all love the crazy headbanging and jumping, it was never the main trademark of the band. People usually know Rammstein for their pyrotechnics and special effects. That is something the band can constantly improve on, now that they have so much money and recourses. However, people do realise that someone like Marlilyn Manson has aged, due to the simple fact that he does not go as crazy on stage as usual.

[Snake]

^I disagree about Till's. Even though he does have a pretty nice performance in songs like Mutter, I really miss his deep voice from herzeleid/sehnsucht.And even though post-mutter their live shows had extremely high production values, the band had way more energy and presence before that. Nowadays the stage has a presence as strong, if not stronger, than the band itself.

[Waidmann]

@Snake: That's Völkerball-blasphemy !!! Well, it's a pity you see it that way, and even notice all these things. I think I'm very lucky for I never notice such mistakes. And I really don't think Till's voice was worse that night. I can't imagine him bringing for example Asche zu Asche, Benzin Du Hast or even Stripped in a better way.

I like many of the older concerts (like the Bizarre festival 1997), but for me they will never compete with the post-Mutter period. Many great songs are from later on, the effects improved and especially they themselves got better (Schneider evolved from average to an excellent drummer, Till started to sing better, got more different voices, just to name a couple of things).

[Chrisss Nofff]

^Thanks for the satisfying answers Snake.


I never really understood why Velodrom 2001 never got a complete release. However looking at Lichtspielhaus, I think I know why. I mean the band was near a break up in 2002/2003. Did it ever occur to you that Lichtspielhaus would work as a good "wrap-up" DVD in case the band would actually break up at that point? I mean the DVD includes all music videos, performanes from all tours, and TV spots and making of's. I think that's what the producers had in mind when making that DVD. They thought it would sell better than just another concert DVD. However this is just the usual crazy Chrisss Nofff speculation.


I would love a Brixton Academy release. I know one should not have too high hopes when it comes to re-releasing old material, however I would love if the band would do a collection of old performances like Led Zeppelin did with their DVD in 2003.


In that case, I would like one full performance from each tour. Here is my crazy wish-list which will probably never be fullfilled:


Herzeleid tour: Der Arena, Berlin, 1996
Sehnsucht tour: Rock am Ring, 1998
Mutter tour: Velodrom, Berlin, 2001 (duh...)
Reise, Reise tour: Brixton Academy (duh....again)
LIFAD tour: Rock am Ring, 2010 ( Damn, the band did really perform above average on that night)
MIG tour: Either Wacken, 2013 or Rock on Volga, 2013

[Snake]

1- A lot of bands release old concert footage when they need cash. I guess Rammstein will do that sometime as well. If that happens, and they consider a Völkerball remake, would you prefer a full version from the Brixton Academy performanes? I mean they certainly sound more "juicy". I don't know if that comes from the recording/mixing efforts, or if it comes from the fact that it's easier to record sound in a smaller indoor-venue. In addition, Till went totaly nuts on all of those concerts (just look at "Feuer Frei").

Yes, I probably would prefer the full version from Brixton Academy. But if the band ever released a DVD with old material, I'd prefer even more that they released Veledrom 2001.

2- Can the band ever top the '98 Berlin performances? I mean it's all subjectiv and opinion based, when we try to decid what the bands "best concert ever" was. There certainly isn't a theoretic answer to that.

Probably not, but that does not mean they shouldn't try. Furthermore, Paris 2012 was a pretty great performance that should already have been released.

However, I consider those nights to be probably the bands best, for several reasons:

-The audience. Nowadays, a lot of people come to a Rammstein show just for the fire. That's fine for me, as long as they enjoy the show. However back than, when Rammstein were controversial, only hardcore fans went to their shows. You can see that on the DVD. Everyone knows the lyrics from every single song (it seems).

If it were '96 or '97 I'd agree, but I'm not sure by '98 they weren't already getting notorious for their live show. They had already a plethora of stunts and pyro in LAB.

[Chrisss Nofff]

^I disagree that Volkerball is a good product. The sound mix is notoreously inferior to LAB, and the editing is a disaster. They spliced 2 concerts together and didn't even bother to desguise it. There are even shots where you notice the guys magically changing wardrobes. Furthermore, Till's voice was completely fucked up on that ocasion, and the overall performance was not as awesome as LAB's.

Well, we can always agree to disagree. Starting another huge thread just because I disagree with someone on a forum, is a little over-the-top. Even for me. However there are to things which I would like you to comment on:


1- A lot of bands release old concert footage when they need cash. I guess Rammstein will do that sometime as well. If that happens, and they consider a Völkerball remake, would you prefer a full version from the Brixton Academy performanes? I mean they certainly sound more "juicy". I don't know if that comes from the recording/mixing efforts, or if it comes from the fact that it's easier to record sound in a smaller indoor-venue. In addition, Till went totaly nuts on all of those concerts (just look at "Feuer Frei").


2- Can the band ever top the '98 Berlin performances? I mean it's all subjectiv and opinion based, when we try to decid what the bands "best concert ever" was. There certainly isn't a theoretic answer to that.


However, I consider those nights to be probably the bands best, for several reasons:


- They were young. Pure physicly they cannot top the old days,
-Rammstein was the centre of their lifes. I know the band regrets that now, however you can see that a young band like they were, are filled with an uncountable measure of passion they will probably never obtain again.
-The audience. Nowadays, a lot of people come to a Rammstein show just for the fire. That's fine for me, as long as they enjoy the show. However back than, when Rammstein were controversial, only hardcore fans went to their shows. You can see that on the DVD. Everyone knows the lyrics from every single song (it seems).


That being said, I guess they could make a better DVD than LAB pure quality-wise. I mean they got more money now, and have a better connection with many top-billed directors.

[Chrisss Nofff]

@ Waidmann, again.

I also like what you said about how concert movies can't capture the actual concert feeling. I totally agree with that. I think everyone agrees with the fact that movies, books or any kind of art/entertaiment can actually capture reality. I know that Michael Moore is a controversial movie maker, however I once stumbled upon a very good quote from him: "Movies try to imitate reality.However reality occurs outside your window, not inside your TV." That's actually a brilliant way of putting it.

The sound of a concert can vary from many things. If you are in the front row, the seats on the side, in the middle, or far behind the stage, the sound can be totaly different. Let's not forget that the audience can be incredibly loud and energetic up front, however in the back people can walk away or just talk to each other. In addition, the technology of microphones and speakers, works totally different compared to our ears. We simply have not been able to create speakers or microphones that recieve or produce sound like us. Therefore you are right, there is no "objectivly correct" way of making a concert movie/album.

In that sense, I have a mild tolerance for dubbing and adding sound-effects. However, the real question for me never was if you can record concert sound in a "correct"-manner. I sort of debunked that earlier. The real question for me is this:Where goes the line between adding effects to make the experience more life-like/authentic, and just straight up dramatizing and exaggerating?

[Snake]

^I disagree that Volkerball is a good product. The sound mix is notoreously inferior to LAB, and the editing is a disaster. They spliced 2 concerts together and didn't even bother to desguise it. There are even shots where you notice the guys magically changing wardrobes. Furthermore, Till's voice was completely fucked up on that ocasion, and the overall performance was not as awesome as LAB's.

[Chrisss Nofff]

In the end, I must say they still did an incredible job on all DVD's so far (IMO). It's still quite impossible to use real live recordings to the full, as even or ears don't catch it all perfectly at the moment. They just want to evoke the live experience, I guess, and as it's just a film and no virtual reality, they have to work in another way, like with better sound (from the audience as well; if you focus with any live DVD on how much the audience shifts from very loud to hardly audible, you would just laugh ), close ups, perfectly working effects etc. I think especially Rammstein puts the bar very high for these things, as their live shows are like no other.

I absolutely agree with you, Waidmann. Live albums have never really been high quality products. The music magazine Rolling Stones ever once in a while does polls and statistics over the 500 most succsesful albums. Only 3 live albums have ever gotten on these lists, and they were always very far behind.

I think we have to admit that selling live material is for most artists just a way of earning a little extra money from the hardcore fans. You're not giving your audience new material. Instead you just give them the same material they have bought before, only that it usualy does not sound as good as the original live version.

Nowadays, people are very aware of this. I really don't know about many artists still releasing live material. Usually they only do it for special occasions. Like Led Zeppelin's 2007 reunion concert in London. "Celebration Day" is a fantastic concert movie. Here is a clip from it (don't worry moderators, it's from the band's official Youtube channel). Another great example of a concert movie, is Martin Scorceses Rolling Stones documentary "Shine a Light".

However, even gigantic bands like these, who work with extremely succesful directors, and have enough money to advertise the album/movie and even give it a theatrical release, don't make a lot of money from it. "Shine a Light" only made 15 million dollars at the box office worldwide. Therefore, a lot of rock/metal bands today (like Slipknot for instance), just let their performances get streamed online or aired on TV. They then earn some money through promotion. Slipknot are actually very smart with this. They stream their annual "Knotfest" - performances on their website, and later on re-release it on their Youtube channel. Great idea, however this means again that the sound quality, and the camera work/editing is reduced to the usual "TV-standard". A little sad, espacially since I think that their 2002 live DVD Disasterpieces is fantastic. The director of that DVD is doing the New York/Montreal from Rammstein by the way.

That being said, it is indeed stunning how much work Rammstein have put into their DVDs. It's certainly not a lazy "cash-in". Völkerball has sold incredibly many copies. In addition clips from that DVD have been used in almost every Rammstein commercial, or TV-segment about the band since late 2006. In that sense, I almost dare to say that Rammstein owe more of their success to that DVD, then they do to the "Rosenrot" and "Liebe ist für alle da"- albums together.

[Waidmann]

In the end, I must say they still did an incredible job on all DVD's so far (IMO). It's still quite impossible to use real live recordings to the full, as even or ears don't catch it all perfectly at the moment. They just want to evoke the live experience, I guess, and as it's just a film and no virtual reality, they have to work in another way, like with better sound (from the audience as well; if you focus with any live DVD on how much the audience shifts from very loud to hardly audible, you would just laugh ), close ups, perfectly working effects etc. I think especially Rammstein puts the bar very high for these things, as their live shows are like no other.

[Chrisss Nofff]

I also wanted to add this:

The first thing that worried me about this new New York/Montreal DVD, was indeed the sound. Back in May 2012 when director Matthew Amos accidentaly posted the Waidmanns Heil performance of the DVD, many people complained about the sound. Now, I now that I should not be judgmental, since the video he posted most likely was a demo.


It's obvious that the DVD will use footage from both the New York and Montreal show. However, already from the start it was said that the sound would be from New York. Even the band's main sound mixer Stefan Glaubmann posted on his Facebook page that he worked on live material from the Madison Square Garden. The audio from the video Amos posted, was obvoulsy from Montreal. This is clear because:


1- Till says "Ja!" right before the keyboard solo/brigde. He only did this in Montreal.
2- There was a sound malfunction during the pyro effect when Till shoots at the roof. In New York you heard a powerful explosion. In Montreal only a quiet "click".


This I guess confirms that the video only was a Demo. However just because the sound wasn't 100% mixed and not from the same show, does not mean it can't give us a taste of how it really sounded. That being said, there were also demos of Völkerball released on the limited edition of Rosenrot. The "Sonne" performance of Brixton Academy sounds unfinished and not very well balanced. However, it nonetheless sounds very similare to the final version which ended on Völkerball.


Although the Rammstein managment usually removes any high-quality live videos from the band on the internet, finding the "Waidmanns Heil"- video isn't really hard anymore. The same goes for the Rosenrot CD Völkerball demos. I won't send links or advertise/help to find these videos (because thats against the forum rules). However you hardly need more than a minute to find these videos on Youtube.

[Zenika]

If you listen to the audio of the Berlin "Sehnsucht"-performance on Lichtspielhaus, you will hear that it is not live, but instead just the studio version. It sounds exactly the same. They tried to make it seem like it was live, by adding some sound effects and audience cheering. It don't really think they actually used real audience samples from the actual concert.

That being said, I wonder why they just didn't want to have the original Live aus Berlin audio on that video?

That was one thing I noticed too. That's clearly the studio version.