Star Wars: The Force Awakens [SPOILER DISCUSSION]

[Waidmann]

^I did like the prequels but more because of the great actors (Neeson, McGregor, Portman, Jackson, Lee, McDiarmid) and some very cool fighting scenes (with Dooku, Grievous, Darth Maul, the arena fight in Attack of the Clones) and the overall strong plot, great effects and theme music. I was indeed bothered by some CGI (just use the Yoda-doll people!) and some very poor acting skills (Hayden Christensen) or characters (Jar Jar Binks). But I can't say I didn't enjoy those movies. But I agree with Chrisss that Lucas might've simply lost it a bit. Even those who hate the prequels will not deny that there's at least a spark, at least a lot of potential in those movies. For me it mostly worked out well, but I think the 'Old Lucas' might've been able to make even more out of it. He did a good job with the prequels, but not a great job IMO.

[Snake]

I have a theory that the weaknesses that can be found in both "Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones" mostly come from the fact that Lucas had been away from the director's chair in over 22 years.

Perhaps, but he was never a good director anyway. Sure, he directed the original Star Wars, but it is known now that he never coached the actors. It was one of the producers that stepped in to do that job. He does not know or care about the actors, he is all about pushing the visual effects.

One other important factor to consider is, that by the time he started making the prequels he was surrounded by yes-men, and had got rid of anybody with the guts to challenge him and call him out on his bad ideas. One such person was his ex-wife. There is actually a pretty interesting article about how she managed to steer his films from being disasters here: http://www.news.com.au/finance/busin...23b06e98805ffb

[Chrisss Nofff]

I actually really liked "Revenge of the Sith"(apart from some acting and dialouge), and overall I don't dislike the prequals that much. I think one thing about George Lucas that many seem to forget, is that he technically only directed 6 major movies in his career. 4 of them being "Star Wars" movies (the prequels + "A New Hope"). In that aspect, I have a theory that the weaknesses that can be found in both "Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones" mostly come from the fact that Lucas had been away from the director's chair in over 22 years. In addition he chose to keep things difficult for himself by both writing and directing, while also using a lot of CGI (which was still very new at the time).

That being said, he critized "The Force Awakens" for being "too retro". On that point, I have to agree with him. However, he did afterwards apologize for some of the comments he made. I can't blame him for having opinions, but then again many "Star Wars"-fans don't really think his opinion holds up since "The Force Awakens" was both a bigger financial and critical success than any of the prequels.

[Snake]

^If the prequels were any good, I might not desmiss his opinion.

[The Rose]

George Lucas is not too impressed with the new instalment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/mo...ment.html?_r=0

[Waidmann]

Some fine theories here... I agree with Chrisss that the plot is somewhat unoriginal, and I found that disturbing as well. Especially as Episode VI: Return of The Jedi also had this scenario of the common resistant fighters having to destroy a huge dangerous planet-like weapon while the people with the Force are battling in person, this was almost the 3rd movie (form only 7!) that had a very similar plot. But the big crowd seems to like, so I think J.J. Abrams' philosophy might've been "never change a winning team". Most seem to agree, but I didn't really.

I agree with Chrisss as well that the villain is more complicated and as a anti-non-hero (don't know how else to say it) quite original and in fact more realistic. But I didn't enjoy it too much because, like Maya, I dislike the actor. That's unfortunately a fact I cannot seem to get over.

That Rey seems quite capable of wielding the force was bothering me too actually. This happened before with the previous trilogy IMO (although I have to say I was a fan of the prequels in general). In the episode IV - VI you see how Luke gets to know the Force and becomes a Jedi through some quick, short, rudimental training moments. That makes him able to compete with Darth Vader. In Episode I - III however, we see that Jedi trainings take more than a decade, with very intensive trainings. For me this totally undermined the credibility of Luke's training in the older movies, where Luke needed only months before he could match Dart Vader, who had at least a decade Jedi training as Anakin Skywalker. And now they seem to have flipped it again, though Anakin could do many spectacular things as a child too (predict the future, "sense" things, guess which pictures the Jedi Counsel was not showing him,...). Nevertheless, it seemed she picked up some Jedi things too quickly IMO.

Although this was quite critical, I did like many parts of the movie. I always liked Han Solo and the humour and rough edge he gave to the movies. That returned quite succesfully, so that worked out well. And overall I do like the main characters. Rey's past also intrigues me, though I somehow hope she's not yet another fledgling of the already complicated Skywalker clan.
An aspect that also intrigues me was the figure of Snoke. I'm eager to get to learn more about him. Maybe some forgotten pupil from Darth Sidious? Or another pupil from Darth Sidious his master maybe, hidden in solitude for some reason...

[IchTuDirWeh]

Haha cool! I'm not sure what my local cinema is doing but maybe i could try again and if not wait for it to come out to buy and watch it then.
And thanks....this is the only pretty active Rammstein forum i've managed to find.

[Chrisss Nofff]

^Haha! I went to the premier dressed up as Obi Wan as well. I don't think you should give up on seeing the movie yet. "The Force Awakens" has grossed so ridicoulously much at the box office, that many theatres will play it all throughout january and probably even february. I don't know what your local cinema has planned, but you should check if they screen it once more if you really want to see it.

By the way, nice to see a new member here. You are welcome here IchTuDirWeh.

[IchTuDirWeh]

I really wanted to go see Star Wars - The Force Awakens with my friend but our local cinema was totally booked out O_O My friend was lucky enough to grab a seat for tomorrow (Tuesday the 29th Dec, 2015), so he'll tell me what it was like. And of course he'll be going in his full Obi Wan Kenobi outfit

[Maya]

^I was talking about the actor (Adam Driver), not the character.

My problem aren't her powers, it's that she suddenly has them and knows how to use them. She does not need training or help. Not talking about an episode maybe five minutes?

It would be cool if she would turn to the dark side along with Kylo Ren, and the last episode would be about Luke and some other Jedi having to kill them both. But then again I don't think they will got THAT dark with this trilogy.

That would be very cool, but I don't think it will happen, she is the new heroine and like Luke probably will never be in the dark side.

[Chrisss Nofff]

^@Snake
The borrowed plotelememts from Ep.IV bother me, but I still like the movie. It's certainley the biggest weakness of this episode for me, but like I said it's nothing catastrophical.


@Maya
I liked the idea of Kylo Ren. Most "Star Wars"-villains that were not monsters/creatures (like Jabba the Hut), are usually older men that are very experienced and superior to most jedi. Most clearly you can see that in villains like Darth Vader, The Emperor and Count Dooku(Darth Tyrannus). Of course there are a few minor exceptions like Darth Maul and General Grevious, but you get the idea. In addition, Lucas likes to introduce the villain's power threw a "reveal". For instance the Emperor looks at first like a completely weak and old man, but all the sudden you find out he can shoot lightning out of his fingertips.


What I liked about Kylo Ren, was that everything was completely reversed. He seemed like a young, disturbed and confused man, who has difficulties keeping himself under control. Furthermore, instead of a "reveal" of power, we come to find out that Kylo Ren isn't as strong as he wished he was.


Now when it comes to Rey, I also think they took it a little too far. Maybe they were a little too focused too make the audience like the new charachters so they tried to make Rey look as cool as possible. As a consequense, I rarely felt that the First Order and it's sith leaders (Kylo Ren and Snoke) were much of a threat. I know it's almost a cliché in SW movies that the villains always win the first round, but like many have pointed out, making Rey THAT powerfull was maybe a mistake.


However this could build up to a giant twist. Snoke talked about the "Awakening in the force". He probably meant Rey discovering her huge powers. It would be cool if she would turn to the dark side along with Kylo Ren, and the last episode would be about Luke and some other Jedi having to kill them both. But then again I don't think they will got THAT dark with this trilogy.

[Snake]

I agree with pretty much everything Chriss said. TFA is being very well received now, but within a decade, it is going to feel like a strange entry in the franchise because of its similar plot to the original movie. I would actually even argue that TFA is a soft-reboot of the franchise.

Having said that, I am one of those who did not mind at all that TFA has a similar plot to the first movie, and I really, really liked TFA. I've seen it 2 times already, and I will probably see it a third. In addition, I believe that future episodes will actually be their own thing, with complete new plots and new twists.

[Maya]

I agree with you in many things, the story is not new, it's just the same in another place and with another people, they haven't risk much, but probably they will surprise us with the next two episodes, this way they give continuity and it's easier for older fans.

But we disagree in what is the biggest complain, there are two things that clearly stand out for me.

1. Kylo Ren, once again I dislike the dark side character's actor. I have to watch the film in VO, but last time it didn't change my opinion at all.
2. And the worst, Rey the superwoman, she doesn't need to learn anything about the force, she can use it without problems. When I watched the scene when she escapes I found it even funny. WTF? With the millennium falcon she needed a little time to be the perfect pilot, but with the use of the force she didn't need any training like Anakin and Luke before her. I wonder after some training what will be her powers in the next movie. Snake has shown me some theories that explain this point, but I don't like them. What do you think about this.

Like you I need more time and I have to watch it again.

[Chrisss Nofff]

Thank you Snake and Maya for opening this thread!

I think I am going to start out by talking about the big moment that shocked many people in the cinema. Usually when a charachter dies in a movie, I don't really feel I can voice my opinion about it. I think the death of a charachter is a choice the writer, director or storyteller does, and it gives the story he/she wants to tell a new direction. Therefore I usually don't get mad when a see a charachter that I like, die in a movie. That being said this is a "Star Wars"-movie so fans are known to have strong opinions. In that aspect, I think this decision was a good way of giving the new trilogy a strong start. Knowing that Kylo Ren (or technically "Ben Solo") killed his father and chose to go completely over to the dark side, makes him a rather interesting villain in my opinion. It will also make the next film very interesting, since I assume Luke feels much guilt because he trained the man who later on killed one of his best friends.

When it comes to the film itself, I think I need some more time to think about the film. I feel that my opinions can change some time after I watched a movie for the first time. Later on, I might enjoy the it more or less.

That being said, for now all I can say is that I really liked "The Force Awakens". I loved the look of the film, the action was great, many scenes had a great atmosphere and mood etc. Overall a really entertaining film. Then again a few things REALLY stuck out for me. I don't know if many people have the same opinion, but I really dislike sequals that are pretty much remakes of the original. In that sense they have overall the same plot and climax as in the first installment. A few examples of this are "Terminator 3" (had the same plot as T2 but you get the idea) and "Jurassic World". I feel this is just an excuse to be less creative and cash in on nostalgia.

I think that in many ways the story was roughly the same as in the original "Star Wars" or "Episode IV: A New Hope" as it's now called:

1. A droid(s) is given a plan/map that he has to hide from the empire/first order, but give to the right people(rebels/resistance).
2. He is picked up by a young depressed protagonist who wants to become something (and lives on a desert-planet).
3. The young protagonist meets a master/mentor (Obi-Wan in Ep. IV, Han Solo in Ep.VII).
4. The young protagonist finds out he/she must become a jedi.
5. They travel to a dangerous space-station to save someone (ok, this part is a little changed).
6. The mentor/master is killed in the end, leaving the antagonist to find a master to learn from. The space-station is being destroyed as well of course.

For a lot of people this isn't a problem at all. They like that this film is reminiscant of the original "Star Wars" and therefore has a lot of elements of nostalgia. The problem I see, is that not everyone feels the same about this. For the younger generations "A New Hope" is just one of the 7 episodes. What I personally think is going to make this film less timeless, is that in 10 years younger "Star Wars" fans who might own all films on DVD might ask themselves "Why do episode IV and VII have pretty much the same plot?". The answer might be "in order to satisfy older fans and give them a feeling of nostalgia back in 2015". Like I said, this might work for now, but will younger fans feel the same in 10 years?

I know you can't really please everyone, but I think they should have borrowed more abstract themes from the original films, instead of simply importing entire scenes and plot devices almost completely unchanged. That seems to be my biggest complain for now, but like I said, it's a little early for me to give my opinion on the film.

[Snake]

^You are a saint.

So, what did you think of the death of Han Solo?