Announcement

Collapse

FORUM RULES ABOUT WEB-BASED LINKS TO MUSIC AND VIDEO'S

Based on latest discussions on this forum, and studiing copyright laws, it is necessary to state out new forum mandatory rules, effective immediately, so, here we are.

LINKS TO MUSIC & VIDEOS: what is legal/what is not.
NEW RULES in the forum state:

From now on in our forum users shal NOT POST TOPICS THAT containin the following :
• Requests for or links to MP3s, music videos, or other files of questionable legality
• Bootlegs

So, please do not POST A LINK TO music or videos which does not directly originate from an officially legal site.

An OFFICIALLY LEGAL SITE is: rammstein.com or rammstein.de, universal music, a legitimate music site like MTV or VIVA. The links must be direct and linked only to the approved site. Any links which have copied and transferred the music or videos from an official legal site to ANYWHERE else are NOT OFFICIAL.

• Do not ASK FOR A LINK to music or videos. If there is a legal site for either listening or viewing, xTERNAL will provide the information in the NEWS section of www.RAMMSTEIN-EUROPE.com.

WHAT YOU CAN DO in the forums: You can DISCUSS a new song or a new video.

WHAT YOU CANNOT DO in the forums: provide illegal links or ask for links, give directions of any kind as to where something might be found (examples: file-sharing, other fansites, etc.). Screen caps will be allowed (within reason) AFTER a video has been made available through an OFFICIAL LEGAL LINK. Fan remixes of songs will be allowed (within reason) after the song has been officially released.

The above restrictions are necessary not because we are being “damn babies” or “. The reason is simply that RAMMSTEIN-EUROPE has made the decision to not be a facilitator of illegal activities involving copyrighted material. The reason for that is also clear. Rammstein’s Management has shown aggressive behaviour in combating copyright infringement.

Anyone who violates the spirit of the aforementioned expansion/explanation of what the RULES mean here as applied to music and videos (and this also includes the "making of videos") will meet up with one of the following consequences:

POST BLOCKED, LINK ERASED AND WORSE.... BANNED IF NECESSARY.

If you have ANY questions about what may or may not be acceptable here, you can always PM a Moderator and ask first before posting something that might get you in trouble here.

•any links to www.youtube.com (or other sharing sites of a similar nature)are generally not allowed.
While some videos like fan made items or spoof animations are allowed, we do not allow linking to youtube. Oftentimes there is/are illegal videos of Rammstein performances to the side of the linked videos. Actual Rammstein Videos which are very illegal to be hosted by that site - therefore we cannot allow links to youtube to be allowed.

So, links to youtube are now allowed - ONLY IF it is a fanmade video by you, and does not contain bootleg footage or footage of live performances or released performances. Stills from photos found on the net are OK. A montage is OK. Clips of released footage are NOT OK.

Please try to understand that sometimes while we may allow a certain individuals fanmade videos, and deny another persons it is usually because the content in it could get the forums in trouble.

Also if some individuals post their fanmade video and it turns out to be bootleg footage that they filmed themselves at a concert and consider that "fanmade" - then we will have to reverse the ruling on allowing fanmade videos PERIOD!

Here is an update on what is considered "fanmade".
Fanmade is fanmade. You did it yourself. Like cut and paste. You creatd everything yourself. No footage filmed by someone else no clips. Still images are OK.
For example:
If you go out and find 6 banana slugs in the yard, dress them up in LAB outfits, and put the skinniest one in a paper boat and play the music to SEEMANN on a kazoo. That is fanmade.

If you have a coverband and you do your own video or you have footage of YOUR band's performance. That is fanmade.

If you have images that you sketched of how you think the video for a song should have been and you put it to music - I think we can allow that.

Use your creativity.

IF YOU SEE VIOLATION OF THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, REPORT IT BY USING THE EXCLAMATION MARK IN THE TOP RIGHT CORNER OF RELEVANT POST.


xTERNAL&MR_FLOOO
See more
See less

How much "live" are Rammstein`s live albums?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • How much "live" are Rammstein`s live albums?

    The time has come again for another 1000+ word Chrisss Nofff article. If you got a ridiculous amount of patients and boredom, grab a cup of tea and read a long. Since the next Rammstein releases will be live DVD`s (whenever they may finally come), I thought we could stay on that topic. PS: The text might end up looking a bit wierd. I wrote everything in Word, because Affenknecht was a little unstabil today and I did not want to start over again.

    How much "live" are Rammstein`s live albums ?


    It´s no secret that artist often fix/re-dub their live recordings, in order to leave a better impression. In the old days (that means something like before 1980), recording a live show was very difficult. Back then the sound equipment was not very reliable. They even had problems recording long dialogues for movies. It is said that about 40% of all dialogue in movies like Star Wars is actually dubbed in post-production. Therefore it was very understandable that artists in the old days would rework their live material in case something went wrong. Capturing things like clean audience sound, was the most difficult. Jimmy Hendricks therefore used samples from chants and applauses from a spanish bullfight in his single Yardbirds. Some artists even went as far as recording new versions of their old songs, adding fake audience sounds and called it "live". Kiss - "Alive II" is by some said to be 96% studio recorded. The first time I noticed dubbing was in Marilyn Manson´s "Guns, God and Goverment" - concert movie. Everything sounded too clean and perfect. The recording was supposedly made in 2001, LA. However amateur recordings of that show revealed that it sounded completely different.

    That being said, with today´s technology no artist that has a record labelcontract and sells out shows, can´t afford good live recording equipment. Therefore, the only excuse artist have today for dubbing, is because they either made mistakes during their concert, or they want to sound better than they actually do. Usually rock/metal bands today overdub parts of vocals, drums, audience sound and partially guitars. Those are usually the hardest elements to get right while performing live.

    Dubbed/fixed elements in Rammstein live material

    I thought I could just go through all the major live material the band has released, and give you my thoughts about how "live" it is. If you have any thoughts or other contributions, continue the list please.


    Live aus Berlin (1999)

    Live aus Berlin was Rammstein´s first live album. Although there is only 1 low quality amateur recording of that show, there are a few things that I am certain of were fixed:

    1. Audience sound: On Rammstein´s website there is an old advertisement from 1998, where Rammstein fans were asked to help record the audience sound for the concert movie. The advertisement can be found here. You can hear on the amateur recording from one of the `98 Berlin shows, that the audience was incredibly loud. However, on the DVD the audience chants and singing is just WAY too loud and clear. Especially during "Du riechst so gut" and the beginning of "Laichzeit".
    2. Till´s vocals on Wilder Wein: This one requires a very good ear. Try to turn on the Live aus Berlin DVD/CD, and listen VERY carefully to Till´s voice on that song. You will realise that there is a very clean and deep backing track that follows his singing during the entire song. You can hear this especially well during the start of the song, and the end of it. I am not entirely sure if this was done in the post-production or if the backing track was also used in the live concert. Another fixed vocal part are the two shouts in "Herzeleid". They sound exactly like on the album, and every other "Sehnsucht tour"-performance. However in this case I am sure that it was just playback/backing track and not dubbing.

    3. Some guitar solos: I have to admit that the I am not entirely sure on this one. The solos in "Heirate mich" and "Rammstein" sound incredibly clean. There is absolutely no scratching or distortion, compared to all the other performances of these songs. I think they either removed some "unclean" noises or dubbed these solos. Or Richard is just a lot better than I think.



    MTV awards, "Ich will" - performance (2001)

    During the live performance of "Ich Will" in 2001 at the MTV awards, several things went wrong: Till´s microphone stopped working during the first couple of seconds, Schneider´s drumming was a little sloppy, Till switched the lines "Könnt ihr uns hören?" and "Könnt ihr uns sehen?" just to name a few. There is another version of this performance without any of these mistakes. It sounds overall quite different. You can find both versions on Youtube.


    Völkerball (2006)

    With the exception of the Japan segment, every single performance on this DVD has good amateur footage/recordings which can be used to compare it to the DVD. The Nimes concert has both video and audio amateur footage. Both are very easy to find on YouTube. There is even a pretty good 50 minute video that can be found on the channel of "SeidBereit". You can also find two very good videos from two of the Brixton Academy concerts on that channel. Oddly enough, I found almost no major evidence of dubbing on this DVD:
    1. The intro of "Du riechst so gut": There was some kind of problem with the keyboard during the start of "Du riechst so gut". There are a lot of weird noises that are being played on a loop. Then all the sudden the keyboard stops working and the band just starts the song. On the DVD we can however hear the standard "Reise, Reise" - tour intro of that song.
    2. Sound level of the vocals: There was some kind of problem with either the microphone or the sound mixing during "Benzin". In any case, if you listen to amateur recordings, and compare it to the DVD, you will hear that the vocals are the exact same, however they are more balanced on the DVD.


    Surprisingly these are the two only differences I found. Of course they edit out things like pauses and "dead airs" between songs. It seems like the band or the directors wanted to keep the little imperfections, since that just helped the DVD get that raw and authentic live feeling. You can hear Till mess up the lyrics here and there. The microphone did not work in the beginning of "Feuer Frei" in London. Little scratch sounds from the guitars at the beginning of "Sonne" in Nimes. Richard starting his solo a little early in "Stein um Stein" etc. I love that the band has kept all these small mistakes. It makes you value the product more, since you know that you have bought a real live album. I hope the band keeps this attitude towards live recordings for their upcoming DVD`s.

    Wacken 3d
    I think it´s so obvious that this performance is dubbed, that I am not even going into much detail on this one. To sum it up really quick:

    • If you listen to the wacken songs that aired on TV, and the other "Du Hast" - proshot festival recordings from that tour (Hurricane, Download), you will hear that the sound is overall very different. Compared to Wacken 3d, the drums have much more bass and the guitars are heavier/lower tuned. Overall the main riffs are also a little faster than usual and shortened down.
    • Till`s vocals are multi-layered, and don´t always match his lips.


    Overall, this one is very understandable. I mean the Wacken movie was more of a "3D experience" movie, than a serious documentary about these musicians. It´s understandable that the director wanted a more impressive sound, instead of the very simple festival TV - recordings. It´s also very obvious that everything is dubbed, since Jakob Hellner (the bands producer) was also the movie´s producer. In addition Till was probably recording Lindemann and Richard was working on Emigrate, while the movie was being made. Recording samples one afternoon and sending them over wouldn’t really be a problem.


    The next live DVD`s?
    One reason for the delays could be that they want to dub/rework something. I really hope they keep their Völkerball standard of only changing minor inconveniences, and not remove every single imperfection. Once the DVD`s come out, I will probably write a similar thread like this.
    Last edited by Chrisss Nofff; 02-21-2015, 09:29 PM.

  • #2
    Now you got me worried that when the DVD finally arrives, that the audio will be completely different from the original performance.
    "Which is better, eternal happiness or a ham sandwich? It would appear that eternal happiness is better, but this is really not so! After all, nothing is better than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is certainly better than nothing. Therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness."

    - Raymond M. Smullyan

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Snake View Post
      Now you got me worried that when the DVD finally arrives, that the audio will be completely different from the original performance.
      Well, that depends on the band. To be honest, I think their live sound during the LIFAD-tour wasn´t really perfect. Scneider´s drums sometimes lacked the power they had in the Ahoi-tour , and Till was not really quite on spot vocally. In addition the guitars lacked the sharpness and rawness they usually had. Things got much better during the MIG-tour however. At worst, Schneider is going to redub the entire drum sound, Till is going to re-record every strong chorus and Richard will work on his guitar stuff a bit. Maybe the audience sound will also be worked on. However I doubt it will come this far.

      Comment


      • #4
        ^I think it will.
        "Which is better, eternal happiness or a ham sandwich? It would appear that eternal happiness is better, but this is really not so! After all, nothing is better than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is certainly better than nothing. Therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness."

        - Raymond M. Smullyan

        Comment


        • #5
          In that case the band would actually disappoint me a bit. I don´t really get the logic behind dubbing over your entire live material. I understand it when the artist wants to change minor mistakes, or just one instrument (although even that can irritate me a bit). I mean when you dub your entire live performance, you just give the fans slightliy worse sounding studio versions of your album songs. What´s the point in that? Of course it would still be nice to listen to, and it would work well together with the visualls. However it would just reinforce your wish to just actually listen to the official album, not a rushed rework.

          If a band is not satisfied with their live sound, they should work on it and fix it next time they are on tour. That is my opinion. End of story.

          Comment


          • #6
            Chrisss Nofff, I really love your threads! You analyze things very deep, I like that.
            I'm not so good to spot mistakes when they play. Of course I hear major mistakes, but that's it. In my opinion, bands should keep mistakes on their live DVDs. When I'm watching band play live, I want to hear difference between live version and studio version. It makes live version even better.

            Comment


            • #7
              Nice thread indeed, once again. Nice job!

              I indeed noticed the Wilder Wein thing on LAB; but only like a year ago. Since than I started looking very closely to the song, to see who did those backing vocals I heard, but I didn't see any of them. Especially in the end, where Till's the only one near a microphone.
              Dort wo der Horizont
              Sich mit dem Meer verbindet
              Dort wollt' ich auf dich warten
              Auf das du mich dort findest

              Comment


              • #8
                There is an interview where they talk about a concert where Flake wasn't paying attention and started the wrong tape to what the band were actually playing. So apparently Flake is controlling all things not played live during concerts. I can see mistakes like this being edited out from live DVDs, as well as some overdubs, but I don't think R+ make overly editing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Oh, another thing I forgot: if you watch the Sehnsucht on 'Lichtspielhaus', which is the one of LAB, you hear the audience is cheering way too loud, in an ennoying way through which is a bit hard to focus on the music. I think the sound there is more or less the original sound, while it's tuned down on the LAB-DVD.

                  @TheRose: I recall a similar interview in which Flake said he sometimes accidentally started the wrong song. So, the band had to start with a song they weren't going to play yet, looking at Flake like "ehm... weren't we going to play some other ones first?".
                  Dort wo der Horizont
                  Sich mit dem Meer verbindet
                  Dort wollt' ich auf dich warten
                  Auf das du mich dort findest

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    @Waidmann

                    If you listen to the audio of the Berlin "Sehnsucht"-performance on Lichtspielhaus, you will hear that it is not live, but instead just the studio version. It sounds exactly the same. They tried to make it seem like it was live, by adding some sound effects and audience cheering. It don't really think they actually used real audience samples from the actual concert.

                    That being said, I wonder why they just didn't want to have the original Live aus Berlin audio on that video?
                    Last edited by Chrisss Nofff; 02-22-2015, 02:49 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Another rather strange thing about the Live aus Berlin DVD is this:
                      If you choose the mono-sound in the sound options, you will hear Till singing the entire first chorus of "Du riechst so gut". However if you choose the stereo-sound, Till cannot be heard during the first two lines of the chorus, that is left to the audience. Overall if you put the stereo sound on, you can hear the audience more. In addition there is a small guitar mistake during "Weisses Fleisch" which is also removed in the mono version.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chrisss Nofff View Post
                        If you listen to the audio of the Berlin "Sehnsucht"-performance on Lichtspielhaus, you will hear that it is not live, but instead just the studio version. It sounds exactly the same. They tried to make it seem like it was live, by adding some sound effects and audience cheering. It don't really think they actually used real audience samples from the actual concert.

                        That being said, I wonder why they just didn't want to have the original Live aus Berlin audio on that video?
                        That was one thing I noticed too. That's clearly the studio version.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I also wanted to add this:

                          The first thing that worried me about this new New York/Montreal DVD, was indeed the sound. Back in May 2012 when director Matthew Amos accidentaly posted the Waidmanns Heil performance of the DVD, many people complained about the sound. Now, I now that I should not be judgmental, since the video he posted most likely was a demo.


                          It's obvious that the DVD will use footage from both the New York and Montreal show. However, already from the start it was said that the sound would be from New York. Even the band's main sound mixer Stefan Glaubmann posted on his Facebook page that he worked on live material from the Madison Square Garden. The audio from the video Amos posted, was obvoulsy from Montreal. This is clear because:


                          1- Till says "Ja!" right before the keyboard solo/brigde. He only did this in Montreal.
                          2- There was a sound malfunction during the pyro effect when Till shoots at the roof. In New York you heard a powerful explosion. In Montreal only a quiet "click".


                          This I guess confirms that the video only was a Demo. However just because the sound wasn't 100% mixed and not from the same show, does not mean it can't give us a taste of how it really sounded. That being said, there were also demos of Völkerball released on the limited edition of Rosenrot. The "Sonne" performance of Brixton Academy sounds unfinished and not very well balanced. However, it nonetheless sounds very similare to the final version which ended on Völkerball.


                          Although the Rammstein managment usually removes any high-quality live videos from the band on the internet, finding the "Waidmanns Heil"- video isn't really hard anymore. The same goes for the Rosenrot CD Völkerball demos. I won't send links or advertise/help to find these videos (because thats against the forum rules). However you hardly need more than a minute to find these videos on Youtube.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            In the end, I must say they still did an incredible job on all DVD's so far (IMO). It's still quite impossible to use real live recordings to the full, as even or ears don't catch it all perfectly at the moment. They just want to evoke the live experience, I guess, and as it's just a film and no virtual reality, they have to work in another way, like with better sound (from the audience as well; if you focus with any live DVD on how much the audience shifts from very loud to hardly audible, you would just laugh ), close ups, perfectly working effects etc. I think especially Rammstein puts the bar very high for these things, as their live shows are like no other.
                            Dort wo der Horizont
                            Sich mit dem Meer verbindet
                            Dort wollt' ich auf dich warten
                            Auf das du mich dort findest

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Waidmann View Post
                              In the end, I must say they still did an incredible job on all DVD's so far (IMO). It's still quite impossible to use real live recordings to the full, as even or ears don't catch it all perfectly at the moment. They just want to evoke the live experience, I guess, and as it's just a film and no virtual reality, they have to work in another way, like with better sound (from the audience as well; if you focus with any live DVD on how much the audience shifts from very loud to hardly audible, you would just laugh ), close ups, perfectly working effects etc. I think especially Rammstein puts the bar very high for these things, as their live shows are like no other.
                              I absolutely agree with you, Waidmann. Live albums have never really been high quality products. The music magazine Rolling Stones ever once in a while does polls and statistics over the 500 most succsesful albums. Only 3 live albums have ever gotten on these lists, and they were always very far behind.

                              I think we have to admit that selling live material is for most artists just a way of earning a little extra money from the hardcore fans. You're not giving your audience new material. Instead you just give them the same material they have bought before, only that it usualy does not sound as good as the original live version.

                              Nowadays, people are very aware of this. I really don't know about many artists still releasing live material. Usually they only do it for special occasions. Like Led Zeppelin's 2007 reunion concert in London. "Celebration Day" is a fantastic concert movie. Here is a clip from it (don't worry moderators, it's from the band's official Youtube channel). Another great example of a concert movie, is Martin Scorceses Rolling Stones documentary "Shine a Light".

                              However, even gigantic bands like these, who work with extremely succesful directors, and have enough money to advertise the album/movie and even give it a theatrical release, don't make a lot of money from it. "Shine a Light" only made 15 million dollars at the box office worldwide. Therefore, a lot of rock/metal bands today (like Slipknot for instance), just let their performances get streamed online or aired on TV. They then earn some money through promotion. Slipknot are actually very smart with this. They stream their annual "Knotfest" - performances on their website, and later on re-release it on their Youtube channel. Great idea, however this means again that the sound quality, and the camera work/editing is reduced to the usual "TV-standard". A little sad, espacially since I think that their 2002 live DVD Disasterpieces is fantastic. The director of that DVD is doing the New York/Montreal from Rammstein by the way.

                              That being said, it is indeed stunning how much work Rammstein have put into their DVDs. It's certainly not a lazy "cash-in". Völkerball has sold incredibly many copies. In addition clips from that DVD have been used in almost every Rammstein commercial, or TV-segment about the band since late 2006. In that sense, I almost dare to say that Rammstein owe more of their success to that DVD, then they do to the "Rosenrot" and "Liebe ist für alle da"- albums together.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X